This is Forum Notes.... Page Three
From Ralph Kalb:
Basically, increasing the solidity of a rotor decreases that rotors RPM
(and therefore increases its cone angle and roll/pitch stability).
Bill: The "frontal area" of a disc is the area of the disc multiplied by
the sine of the tiltback angle (back to the trig book.
However, with a cone angle as large as you described, the best bet would
seem to be to treat the rotor as two seperate parts... one ahead of the
pivot and one behind, and add the two areas up. In other words, the half
ahead of the axis would be (disc area /2)*sin(tilt+cone) and behind would
be (disc area/2)*sin(tilt-cone).
I wouldn't want to comment on the co-ax vs the side by side rotors,
except to say that with side by side, basically you have two gyros flying
side by side (but with one body!), and one would expect the total rotor
drag to be twice that of one rotor. With the coax, that rotors interact
with each other, and all bets are off!
Someday when you have time, could you move the wind tunnel test stand
outside in the breeze and measure the VERTICAL lift at larger angles than
were done on the wind tunnel test data? I need data from about 10
degrees tiltback to at least the PEAK lift angle (where the lift starts
dropping off). Drag data would be useful also, but not vital. Wind speed
is not critical, but should be reasonably constant.
Thanks....Ralph
Steve: Let me recapitulate the saga of the lead/lag rotor blades and see
if I understand.....
The blades are drilled for the retaining strap bolt in line with the
blades CG. The retaining straps are identical. The hub holes for mounting
the retaining straps are equally spaced. So far, so good?
Statically, the rotor is in balance. At very low RPM the rotor is in
balance. OK so far?
After a high RPM run, the blades are found to have shifted their angular
position from the original to a leading angle for blades that originally
balanced at 25% chord and a lagging position for blades originally
balanced at a 30% position, and the rotor is now out of balance.
The blades are acting as though the drag on each blade is less on the 25%
blades and greater on the 30% blades OR the force causing the blade to
rotate is greater for the 25% blades, and less for the 30% blades, or both
effects acting together.
This could be caused by the fact that the difference in the distance to
the reflex bevel is causing more "nose-up" twist on the 25% blades and
less on the 30% blades. The reflex bevel you have mentioned (@ 45 degrees)
is a rather radical departure from what I consider a reflex... a smoooooth
contour change from a flat bottom to a slightly upturned trailing edge.
One way of checking out this theory is to make a 4 bladed rotor having 2
25% blades mounted at 180 degrees from each other, and 2 30% blades
mounted at right angles to them. The rotor should remain in balance after
running but the angle between the blades should change from 90 degrees to
90 +/- ?? degrees if this is a true theory. First "swing wing rotor" ever
flown!!!
Actually, Steve, monorotors are a lot of fun Ralph
Steve: Re the lead of a 25% chord balanced blade and the lag of a 30%
chord balanced blade.... I have to make some assumptions... correct me if they aren't right!
I am going to assume the pivot point of the blade to the hub is on the 25%
chord line (if one were there!). I am also going to assume that Sherlock
Holmes was right when he said "Eliminate the impossible, and what's left
(however improbable) must be the cause". Sounds like a good place to start.
With either set of blades (25% or 30%), when you "hand prop" them to
start, you either push on that one blade (which gives a severe unbalance +
that blade has a leading angle momentarily) or you push on the hub, and
all blades swing back into lag (momentarily).
If we could imagine somehow "magically" putting the revolving rotor into
outer space (no air!), we would find that the CGs of both rotors, both
pivot points and the hub axis would line up under the influence of
centrifugal force! (If you can't get a quick shuttle launch scheduled, you
can always fake it by hanging a 2 bladed rotor from one CG and note the
same thing).
If we place a lead weight on the blade on each LE, the CG will switch from
the 25% chord to (perhaps) the 10% chord, but the blade axis will be
LAGGING. Putting the lead weight on the TE, the CG will switch from the
25% chord to (perhaps) the 50% point, and the blade axis will be leading!
Sort of bass-ackwards of what you are seeing, so it doesn't seem to be a
mechanical problem, rather aerodynamic.
About 2 years ago, you mentioned that you were always finding your blades
"leading" when they spun down, and I attributed it to the plades "pulling
the hub around" as opposed to a heli whose "hub pulled the blades around",
producing a lagging force. Gotta think some more! Ralph
Looking at it closely, the denominator can be written ((n^3 x d^3} x d^2 x
density ratio), where n x d = Prop Tip Speed (TSR) * 60/pi. Thus with a
fixed TSR (825 to 925 '/sec) the Cp basically depends on the HP of the
engine, the TSR selected, and d^2.
There is the rub: the engine HP rated by the manufacturer is the HP at the
RPM of the prop if directly coupled, and they don't perform anywhere near
what the manufacturer says is peak RPM. By the time one adds all the
"goodies" (prop, muffler, etc), the engine is only putting out about half
of its "rated" (published) HP.
In addition, the TSR suggested (825-925 '/sec) is getting right up there
with the speed of sound (1040'/sec) and tip noise is a problem... not at
an airport, but if you got neighbors????. Most R/C'rs run typically 500
'/sec or so and a means of using a reduction gear would be a big
advantage, allowing a higher engine RPM and a lower tip speed to generate
more static thrust quietly! Ralph
Mickey: If I'm not mistaken, lift dysymmetry will cause a precession of
the rotor disc rearward, not a rolling force in a teetering head design.
With a Cierva head, the rising blade produces a sideways force, since it
is inclined higher than the retreating blade producing a rolling force
toward the retreating blade (neutralized by tilting the mast, moving it
toward the retreating blade, or moving the CG toward the advancing blade)... Ralph
Steve: I believe you are right about
the KK and the stiff blades. If one could mill the blades out of solid 6061-T6,
it probably wouldn't make any difference where they were hooked up to the hub .
However, in this "best of all possible worlds", a non-symmetrical airfoil
will have a pitching moment, and the thinner, blades make the situation
all the worse unless .....nbsp;
Basically, a rotor blade is like a flying wing in many respects, and although we may hold it in the right position at the hub, waaaaay out
there on the tip (where it is going the fastest!), unless it is
torsionally rigid (like the 6061 rotor) or the pitching moment is
compensated for with a reflex in the case of a rotor or an elevator
trimmed to push the tail down in a fixed winger.
This pitching action can be demonstrated by sticking a rotor out a car
window at high speed... if things are wrong, it will flutter like mad.... Ralph
Bill: Re the hinges.... I think I covered that in the PhARTS 1 booklet,
but lets go over it again....
If one has offset (ie spaced) hinges, centrifugal force will keep the
blades rotating in the same disc plane, and if the fuse is swung to one
side, EACH BLADE will continue to stay at the same angle to the horizon
BUT each blade will be displaced vertically from the other. This
displacement forms a "couple" and a large rotational force results which
sets the fuse straight. Ya gotta draw it to see it, I'm afraid!
As a "hands on" experiment, cut a piece of paper or light cardboard 6"
long and 1" wide... this will be your "rotor". Using heavy pressure on a
ball point pen, form hinges by marking the paper 2" in from each end on
both sides, and crease the paper by folding both "blades" up and down a
few times. Mark and punch a tiny hole in the center of the paper (this
will be the "hub") and slip in a toothpick (this will be the shaft/mast).
With the "blades" and "hub" lined up and parallel, the "mast" should be
vertical if your fingers try to pull the blades apart (centrifugal force).
With your third hand angle the hub so the toothpick "mast" is angled
away from vertical, releasung some of the "centrifugal force" of your
fingers. This then represents the body being swung away from the vertical
for some reason. Note that the "blades" are still parallel but seperated
from each other. Increasing the "centrifugal force" will immediatly cause
the "mast" to return to vertical due to the moments of the offset "hinge".
This restoring force is in addition to the normal pendulum restoration due
to the gyros CG being below the rotor CG, and gives increased stability. ... Ralph
From Mickey Nowell: in reply to the following question:
"If I'm not mistaken, lift dysymmetry will cause a precession of the
rotor disc rearward"
Depends on which side. If it is on the retreating side it will precess
forward. This is exactly the way cyclic works. I still believe that lift
dysymmetry is a transient condition. The rotor, once in a stable plane of rotation will
exhibit a force at the center, perpindicular to the tip path plane. A disturbing condition,
such as a gust, fuselage wiggle, cyclic, intentional pitch, roll or yaw by the tail,
constitutes a momentary condition in which the rotor will precess to a
new, stable, centered condition. It goes back to a simple idea that
no one has yet to refute here:
A teetering rotor or a hinged rotor cannot
apply a torque to the rotor shaft.
The blade or teeter can only apply a force that pulls on the hinge pin(s).
Once the rotor is steady state the force applied is zero measured parallel
to the tip path plane. The rotor is thus producing a thrust perpindicular
to the tip path plane. I don't believe in any lift dysymmetry, it is I
believe that the thrust vector does not go through the CG and thus
produces a roll or pitch or both. This has to be trimmed out. The trim can
be tilt or offset, the net result being the lift vector is through the CG.
i've been proved wrong many times so please keep me honest.... Mickey
More from Ralph Kalb:
Bill: The basic vector analysis on any "flying machine" says that for a
constant altitude, constant airspeed flight, Lift = Weight and Drag =
Thrust. When this condition is met, all is right with the world!
Talking about "power" reguires a knowledge of airspeed, since the power
available for a gyros flight changes with airspeed. Example: 1 HP = 550 ft
#/second. Written another way, 1 HP = (#) x (ft/sec), where # is thrust
and ft/sec is velocity.
The Prop Coefficent calculations are based on Hollnann's book "Designing
the Gyroplane" and come from a way of estimating the static thrust of a 2
bladed prop, tip speed 825-925 '/sec that Hamilton Standard came up with,
using a graphical conversion in the book. What you end up with is the
expected static thrust (AS = zero), and from that you can determine the
"effective" HP the engine is putting to work at any given airspeed, and
then comparing that "effective" HP to what a gyro requires at the same
airspeed. If the "effective" HP is less than that required, "she no fly";
if greater, the difference can be expressed as PAFC or Power Available For
Climb. Ralph
Back to
page two
On to
page four
updated 5-30-00..jb